Participants
Everyone heard or named as taking part on the recording. There are no minutes to check spellings against; names follow the project's 2015-2023 roster and attribution report, with the transcribed form kept where it differs. Students other than the board's student representative are described by role only, and students named in the reports are not reproduced.
| Name | Role | Participation |
|---|
| Frank Sprague | Chair | Calls the meeting to order (0:00:00) and runs every item. Opens and closes citizens' comments with no speakers (0:08:57, 0:09:11). In the policy review he discloses that "my daughter works at the district" and asks that the nepotism policy be reconsidered (1:29:49); see flags 5 and 7. Asks for a formal plan so the district does not "get three years behind again or four years behind" on audits (1:22:41). |
| Rebecca Zullo | Vice chair; superintendent search committee | Reports on the superintendent search: a meet and greet targeted for March 4 (0:50:50) at the technical center (1:44:13). Raises Donors Choose and donor-ownership questions on the Chromebook fundraiser (0:35:38), asks for the food service renewal date (1:00:40) and for the business office's "proactive measures" on audits (1:25:53). |
| Jason Benware | Board member | Called as "Jason Bentley" (0:00:39). Moves the three trip approvals (0:19:50, 0:23:32, 0:27:40), the donations (1:07:46), the IDN partnership (1:11:39), the referral of policy BCB (1:35:32), the second and final read (1:36:19) and adjournment (1:44:49). Asks how audits are billed: "when we have late audits like this, I expect costing our taxpayers more money than it ought to" (1:19:17). |
| Rob Lovett Jr. | Board member | Speaks to the agenda amendment (0:01:24); seconds the Chicago trip (the chair says "That seconded by Ron", 0:20:01), the donations (1:08:08) and adjournment (1:44:55). Asks whether removing purchases has changed lunch debt (0:58:14) and why the audit report's "page numbers are all over the place" (1:21:21). |
| Michael Petrin | Board member | Answers the roll call ("Michael. Here.", 0:00:39) and is recorded as seconding the IDN motion ("Mike. Seconds.", 1:11:49). No dialogue row is attributed to him. |
| Michelle Pierce | Board member | Suggests grant sources and local employers for the Chromebook drive (0:34:26, 0:46:46); comments on the food service program (1:01:55); argues for candidate time at a televised board meeting, "as a person who ran three years ago" (1:39:21, 1:39:47); asks whether Claremont Historical Society fliers may go home through the schools (1:41:56). |
| Carolyn Towle | Board member | Seconds the minutes (0:02:03), two trips (0:23:39, 0:27:45) and the policy read (1:37:07); moves the Youth and Government trip (0:30:54). Asks what the 2015 audit cost (1:19:53) and whether the IDN would bring more teachers (1:11:55); gives a zoning-board recusal example (1:33:01). |
| Unidentified board member (a woman) | Board member | Welcomes the student council officers and suggests extending the program to sixth graders (0:18:57, 0:19:35). The attribution report leaves her as Towle, Zullo or Pierce. |
| Unidentified | Board member | Moves acceptance of the minutes (0:01:50). |
| Cory LeClair | Assistant Superintendent; acting superintendent from February 2019 (roster, citing Valley News, March 9, 2019) | Gives the superintendent's report (0:05:02) and presents the lunch debt update (0:52:27), the donations (1:05:15), the IDN Region 1 certificate of vote (1:08:37), the audit status (1:15:14) and the policies (1:28:22). States that policy adoption is "required by statute to have at least two reads" (1:36:09); see flag 4. |
| Michael O'Neill | Business Administrator | Explains the audit backlog: "when I started, they had just issued 12 and I started in 15" (1:18:24); "The goal is by June to have them all up to date" (1:18:40); the fiscal 2016 interim billing was $21,000 (1:20:03); and the district needs a governmental audit of its grant funds (1:20:12). Says the food service renewal must be decided "by April 1st" (1:04:00). Spelling of the surname per the roster (unverified). |
| Prescott Herzog | Student representative (Stevens High School) | Gives the student report (0:02:15), introduced as "Preston Prescott" (0:03:59); presents the Youth and Government trip (0:29:06); warns that GoFundMe takes "10% of whatever is earned" (0:41:33). |
| Nancy Lewis | Stevens High School teacher; student council and Youth and Government advisor | Introduces the student council's request for a leadership conference in Chicago (0:09:37), the student leadership conference (0:20:26) and the Youth and Government weekend, "33. Maybe." students (0:30:29). |
| Kara Gilson | Stevens High School English teacher | Self-identifies (0:09:52); co-advisor for the Chicago trip. Spelling as transcribed; unverified. |
| Jennifer Ferland | Stevens High School registrar, cheer coach and senior class advisor | Presents the class of 2019 overnight trip to Hyannis, Massachusetts, May 20-21, at "a rate of $36 per student" (0:23:53, 0:24:58). |
| Susan (Sue) Taylor | Claremont Middle School counselor | Added to the agenda at the start of the meeting (0:00:55); transcribed as sutler in her self-introduction (0:32:24). Proposes a fundraiser for a Chromebook for every middle school student: "we need 200 Chromebooks of $400. I put down for $85,000" (0:35:24). |
| Student council officers and a Youth and Government member | Stevens High School students | Three seniors present the Chicago conference and the student leadership conference (0:13:22, 0:14:24, 0:15:14, 0:20:44); a student describes the bills she wrote for Youth and Government (0:29:47). Names withheld on this page. |
Order of business (reconstructed)
No agenda was located. The chair refers to "an agenda in front of us" (0:00:55) and the acting superintendent to "your packets" (0:52:10); this list is reconstructed from the chair's transitions. Votes were by voice; no dissent is audible on the transcript unless stated.
Items in the order taken up, with dispositions as heard on the recording.
| Taken up | Item | Disposition |
|---|
| 0:00:00 | Call to order, Pledge, roll call | Roll answered in a chorus; names heard include "Jason Bentley" [Benware] and Michael (0:00:39, 0:00:45). |
| 0:00:55 | Agenda amendment | The chair proposes inserting Sue Taylor's middle school proposal after the field trip requests; a motion "To amend the agenda." (0:01:24) passes on a voice vote. |
| 0:01:26 | Minutes | "minutes from January 2nd through January 16th" (0:01:26). Moved by an unidentified member (0:01:50), seconded by Towle (0:02:03); approved on a voice vote (0:02:05). The chair corrects himself mid-motion ("Excuse me. January 6th.", 0:02:01), and the second answers 1616, so the date is garbled. |
| 0:02:15 | Student representative's report | Report given; no action. |
| 0:05:02 | Superintendent's report | Given by the assistant superintendent; no action. |
| 0:08:57 | Citizens' comments | Opened and closed: "Seeing none." (0:09:11). |
| 0:09:23 | Trip: student council conference, Chicago | Benware moves (0:19:50); second recorded as Ron [Rob Lovett Jr.] (0:20:01); approved. |
| 0:20:26 | Trip: student leadership conference | Benware moves (0:23:32); Towle seconds (0:23:39); approved (0:23:40). |
| 0:23:53 | Trip: class of 2019 overnight, Hyannis | Benware moves "to approve the class trip of the class of 2019" (0:27:40); Towle seconds (0:27:45); approved (0:28:09). |
| 0:28:26 | Trip: Youth and Government, April 5-6 | Not on the acting superintendent's list until she remembered it (0:28:19). Towle moves (0:30:54); Benware seconds (0:31:01); approved (0:31:47). |
| 0:32:04 | Claremont Middle School Chromebook fundraiser (added item) | No vote. The chair: "I think you do have the the tacit support of the board to proceed" (0:48:35), with a structure and fund arrangements to come back. |
| 0:50:42 | Superintendent search update | Report; no action. |
| 0:52:01 | School lunch debt update | Report; contract review proposed for "the second second meeting in March" (1:03:53). |
| 1:05:01 | Acceptance of donations | Benware moves to accept "$7,500 to the Byrne Foundation for the CMS", "$2,000 from the Byrne Foundation for the Bluff White Mountains trip, and $750 from Hannaford" (1:07:46); Lovett seconds (1:08:08); approved together (1:08:13). See flag 2. |
| 1:08:26 | IDN Region 1 certificate of vote | Benware moves (1:11:39); second recorded as Mike. (1:11:49); approved (1:15:04). See flag 6. |
| 1:15:11 | Financial audit update | Report; no action. See flag 1. |
| 1:28:15 | Policies | Policies for review: no changes. Benware moves policy BCB "back at the subcommittee level" (1:35:32); approved (1:35:36). Benware then moves a list of policies, transcribed as "a CACRACECBI see em DADBDFADFARD I'd DJEHBEHBRFEIGBAHPKED lc and LDA", "to a second and final read" (1:36:19); Towle seconds (1:37:07); approved (1:37:25). The policy codes cannot be recovered reliably from the transcript. |
| 1:37:47 | Future agenda | Candidate time at the March 6 meeting left to depend on whether CCTV televises the March 5 forum (1:40:39). |
| 1:43:34 | Announcements | SAU 6 board meeting the next night at 6:30; next Claremont meeting March 6; superintendent candidates' meet and greet March 4. |
| 1:44:49 | Adjournment | Benware moves (1:44:49); Lovett seconds (1:44:55); approved (1:45:00). |
Discussion timeline
Times are taken from the dialogue transcript (Dialogue/10252 SchoolBoard022019.mp4.CSV) and link into the recording.
Topics in chronological order.
| Time | Topic | What was said | Flags |
|---|
| 0:00:00 | Opening | Pledge; "Roll call attendants, please." (0:00:30). The agenda is amended to fit in a middle school counselor's proposal "about 7:00" (0:00:55). | |
| 0:02:15 | Student report | Early college planning committee meeting that night; Stevens' Youth and Government club had six members elected to leadership posts at the regional caucus and "We were the biggest delegation" (0:02:42); middle school eighth graders' Keene State trip March 8; elementary events. | |
| 0:05:02 | Superintendent's report | Maple Avenue art show at Valley Regional Hospital March 6. At the professional development day "the focus across the district was safety" and "Some of the drills had never been practiced before" (0:06:01); afternoon training on trauma, and a screening of Paper Tigers (0:07:10). Mid-year testing results to be presented in March (0:07:59). Notes "a board retreat on February 9th" (0:08:22). | MEDIUM |
| 0:08:57 | Citizens' comments | "If anyone would like to speak to the board, approach the podium with your name and your word." No one spoke (0:09:11). | |
| 0:09:37 | Chicago leadership conference | Student council officers ask to attend a conference "happening on the 22nd in Chicago" (0:15:55). Conference fees and rooms are paid from student council fundraising; students pay their own travel (0:16:54). Five students signed up and one more interested (0:18:17). Approved (0:19:50). Towle asks them to "come back and just give us a follow up" (0:20:13). | |
| 0:20:26 | Student leadership conference | A senior describes last year's conference; the request comes through the athletic director and "was not on my radar" (0:23:04), says the acting superintendent. Approved (0:23:40). | |
| 0:23:53 | Senior class trip | One night, Monday May 20 to Tuesday May 21, at a Hyannis resort; "four students per room at a rate of $36 per student" (0:24:58). Paid from "senior class fund raising funds" and class dues (0:25:59). 53 students signed up, "hoping to get closer to 80" (0:26:33). Approved (0:28:09). | |
| 0:28:26 | Youth and Government | Annual legislative weekend April 5-6; about 33 students, "the largest delegation" (0:30:29). Benware, seconding, suggests a student bill asking "for more funding for education" (0:31:01); the chair wears a pin "in solidarity with the Berlin school district" (0:31:12). Approved (0:31:47). | |
| 0:32:04 | Middle school Chromebook fundraiser | About 400 students and "approximately 200 Chromebooks" (0:32:27); goal $85,000 through a GoFundMe page (0:35:24). The acting superintendent's concern is ownership: "Do I own those five Chromebooks? Or does Claremont Middle School own those five Chromebooks?" (0:37:29); she proposes a district fund like the one set up for lunch debt donations (0:39:20). GoFundMe "take 10% of whatever is earned" (0:41:33). No vote; "tacit support of the board to proceed" (0:48:35). | |
| 0:50:42 | Superintendent search | "Our targeted date for a meet and greet is March 4th", where "hopefully" two finalists will meet "the community and the staff and parents and students" (0:50:50). The search is guided by a hired consultant, Bill (0:51:33). | |
| 0:52:01 | School lunch debt | Payment plans and cleanup of duplicate accounts (0:52:27). "Our total negative debt has not increased substantially from last time, but unfortunately it has not decreased substantially either" (0:54:42). Benware: "79% of those people who still haven't paid are not people who qualify for free and reduced lunch" (0:56:00). Families who qualify can still carry "a $48 debt" from a la carte items (0:59:22). The chair wants to "dig into that contract" (0:57:37); the business administrator reads the agreement as requiring a decision "90 days prior to the end of the year" (1:03:42), "by April 1st" (1:04:00). | OBSERVATION |
| 1:05:01 | Donations | Byrne Foundation "contribution of $7,500 for the eighth graders at Claremont Middle School" for a June trip to Boston (1:05:15); a second Byrne check "for $2,000 for the annual bluff trip to the White Mountains", which the foundation had asked to present at a later meeting because "the agenda has gone out for this meeting" (1:06:05, 1:06:38); Hannaford $750 for preschool nutrition (1:07:31). Accepted together on one motion (1:07:46 to 1:08:13). | HIGH |
| 1:08:26 | IDN Region 1 | The certificate reads, as transcribed: "We're certifying that saw six is a member of region one integrated delivery network" (1:09:57); the acting superintendent explains it "allows the Claremont School District to be a partner" so it can seek grant funding for Medicaid-eligible students' mental and emotional health (1:10:22). No dues or fees (1:14:21). Approved (1:15:04). | OBSERVATION |
| 1:15:11 | Audit status | "We just recently got the final, copy of our 2015 fiscal year audit" (1:15:14); "we are close to finishing the Claremont 16 audit" (1:15:40); the auditors will spend the week of March 11 aiming to reach fiscal 2018 (1:16:05, 1:16:28). Four audit entities: Claremont, Unity, Cornish and the SAU (1:16:57). O'Neill: "when I started, they had just issued 12 and I started in 15" (1:18:24); "The goal is by June to have them all up to date" (1:18:40). Fiscal 2016 interim billing $21,000 (1:20:03); because of "the government dollars" the auditors do "a governmental audit as well of the grant funds" (1:20:12). The chair asks for "a formal plan moving forward" (1:22:41) and for the recommendations to reach the policy committee (1:24:26). | HIGH |
| 1:28:15 | Policies | A group of older policies is reviewed without change, so the board "can now document that, yes, they've been reviewed annually" (1:29:20). On policy BCB the chair says: "my daughter works at the district. And according to this policy, that is not allowed" (1:29:49), and later "that policy has not been enforced in the past" (1:35:06). BCB goes back to subcommittee (1:35:32). On the remaining policies the acting superintendent says "That's required by statute to have at least two reads." (1:36:09); they move to a second and final read (1:36:19). The chair praises the strike-through markup (1:37:09). | OBSERVATION OBSERVATION POSITIVE |
| 1:37:47 | Future agenda; candidate forum | A candidate forum on March 5 "will be held in this room. And the intention is for it to be televised" (1:38:42). The acting superintendent will check with CCTV: "I don't believe they actually were able to televise our last regularly scheduled board meeting" (1:40:42). Members split on also giving candidates time at the March 6 board meeting (1:39:21, 1:39:54). | |
| 1:41:56 | Historical Society fliers | Pierce, newly on the Claremont Historical Society board, asks whether fliers can go home through the schools; "As long as it follows the policy related to that, I think it's fine." (1:43:19). | |
| 1:43:34 | Announcements and adjournment | SAU 6 board the next night at 6:30 "in this space" (1:43:52); next Claremont meeting March 6; meet and greet "at the tech center in the teal lantern room" (1:44:13). Adjourned (1:45:00). | |
Items flagged for review
These flags are a reviewer's aid, not findings of violation and not legal advice. Each one names the rule it rests on, as that rule read on February 20, 2019, or is labeled an observation where no verified rule applies. The RSA 91-A:2, II requirement that minutes name each motion's mover and seconder took effect January 1, 2019, and so applies to this meeting.
HIGH The district's federally required audits were years past their filing deadlines
The board was told that the final fiscal 2015 audit had "just recently" arrived (1:15:14), that the fiscal 2016 audit was close to a draft (1:15:40), and that the auditors hoped to reach fiscal 2018 in March (1:16:28). The business administrator explained why the district needs more than a financial audit: because of "the government dollars, we have to have two orders basically. So they do a regular audit and then they have to do a governmental audit as well of the grant funds" (1:20:12; orders is probably audits). That second audit is the federal single audit. For a fiscal year ending June 30, the reporting package is due "within the earlier of 30 calendar days after receipt of the auditor's report(s), or nine months after the end of the audit period": March 31, 2017 for fiscal 2016 and March 31, 2018 for fiscal 2017, under 2 CFR 200.512(a)(1). Fiscal 2015 began July 1, 2014, before Subpart F applied, so its deadline came from OMB Circular A-133 §320(a), with the same nine-month rule: March 31, 2016. On the record, fiscal 2015 was nearly three years late on February 20, 2019, fiscal 2016 nearly two years late, and fiscal 2017 nearly a year late. In mitigation, staff described the backlog openly, attributed it to the years before the business administrator arrived in 2015, and set a goal of being current by June (1:18:40). The record gives no federal expenditure total; the finding rests on the business administrator's statement that the grant audit is required. RSA 21-J:19, the state audit statute, is permissive and is not relied on here.
Sources: 2 CFR 200.512(a)(1), 2019 annual edition (single-audit report due the earlier of 30 days after the auditor's report or nine months after period end); 2 CFR 200.501(a), 2019 edition ($750,000 threshold); 2 CFR 200.110(b), 2019 edition (Subpart F applies to fiscal years beginning on or after December 26, 2014); OMB Circular A-133 (2007 revision), §200(a) and §320(a) (earlier fiscal years)
HIGH A $7,500 private gift was accepted with no sign of the prior public hearing the statute requires
RSA 198:20-b lets a school board accept "unanticipated money from a state, federal or other governmental unit or a private source" once the voters have adopted the enabling article, and ¶III(a) adds: "For unanticipated funds in the amount of $5,000 or more, the school board shall hold a prior public hearing on the action to be taken", with newspaper notice of the time, place and subject at least 7 days ahead. The Byrne Foundation's gift for the eighth-grade Boston trip was $7,500 (1:05:15), so the threshold is met. The board accepted it with two smaller gifts on a single motion (1:07:46 to 1:08:13). Nothing on the recording refers to a hearing, and the recording begins at the call to order with no hearing before it. The finding would fall if the district holds a hearing notice and record for this gift. The two smaller gifts were under the threshold, where ¶III(b) requires notice "in the agenda" and in the minutes and acceptance in public session at a regular meeting. Acceptance in public session is on the recording. The $2,000 Byrne check, though, arrived after "the agenda has gone out for this meeting" (1:06:38), which suggests it was not on the posted agenda; with no agenda or minutes surviving, that cannot be checked.
Sources: RSA 198:20-b, I and III(a)-(b), 2019 codification (source note ends 2005, 188:1, so the same text was in force in February 2019; the $5,000 threshold was raised only in 2023)
MEDIUM No agenda, packet or minutes survive in any district share
The meeting had an agenda ("We have an agenda in front of us", 0:00:55) and packets ("In your packets", 0:52:10), and the board approved its January minutes on tape (0:01:26 to 0:02:05), so minutes were being kept. None of this meeting's documents is in the district's public shares: MAP.md records that neither share holds a year folder older than 2022. RSA 91-A:2, II required minutes with the names of members, persons appearing, a brief description of the subject matter and final decisions, open to public inspection "not more than 5 business days after the meeting"; from January 1, 2019, the minutes also had to name who moved and seconded each motion. Several movers and seconders on this recording are garbled (Ron, Mike. Seconds.) or unidentified, so the minutes would be the only reliable record of them. Graded MEDIUM under the project's rule for missing records because the record mitigates the gap: the meeting was noticed and packeted and minutes were evidently kept, and only their public availability is missing. The acting superintendent also mentions "a board retreat on February 9th" (0:08:22); no record of that session was located, and none was looked for, because MAP.md shows nothing on Drive before 2022.
Sources: RSA 91-A:2, II, 2019 codification (source note ends 2018, 244:1, eff. Jan. 1, 2019): minutes contents, mover and seconder, five business days
OBSERVATION "Required by statute to have at least two reads": no such statute was located
When a member asked to move the policies straight to a third and final read, the acting superintendent answered "That's required by statute to have at least two reads." (1:36:09), and the board moved them to "a second and final read" (1:36:19). No New Hampshire statute requiring two readings of a school board policy was found in the project's verified anchors, and none was verified for this page. A two-reading rule is common in district by-laws or policy-adoption policies, which are binding on the board as its own rules, not as statute. The statement is reported as the speaker's characterization; the board's own policy-adoption policy would settle it.
Sources: none verified; reported as the speaker's statement (1:36:09).
OBSERVATION The chair said the board's nepotism policy had "not been enforced in the past"
Reading policy BCB aloud, the chair quoted its first sentence as barring the board from employing a member's relatives (1:31:19), disclosed that his daughter works for the district as a paraprofessional (1:29:49, 1:30:26), noted former members whose spouses worked for the district and a current candidate whose wife does, and said "that policy has not been enforced in the past" (1:35:06). The acting superintendent pointed to the policy's second part, which requires a member with a conflict to declare it and refrain from debate and voting (1:31:02), and noted that the SAU had no policies of its own and deferred to district policies (1:33:57). The board sent BCB back to subcommittee (1:35:32). A board saying on the record that it has not followed one of its own policies is a control question for later pages: whether BCB was amended, and how. No state statute on board-member nepotism was verified for this page, and the policy text itself is not in the record.
Sources: the recording (1:29:49 to 1:35:36); policy BCB text not available.
OBSERVATION Two items with loose ends: an IDN certificate worded for SAU 6, and a food service renewal deadline
The IDN certificate, as read, certified "that saw six is a member of region one integrated delivery network" and authorized the region's lead to "enter into contracts, receive and distribute funds" (1:09:57), yet the vote was taken by the Claremont School Board and described as letting "the Claremont School District" partner (1:10:22). The SAU 6 board met the next night (1:43:52); whether it also voted is outside this record. Separately, the business administrator read the food service agreement as requiring a renewal decision "by April 1st" (1:04:00), and the chair proposed taking it up at "the second second meeting in March" (1:03:53). If the provider is a food service management company, federal rules limit each contract to one year with no more than four renewals, so each renewal is an annual decision; the record does not say which contract year 2019-20 would be. Neither point is a confirmed defect.
Sources: 7 CFR 210.16(d), 2019 annual edition (management company contracts: one year, renewals not exceeding four additional years)
POSITIVE A member's conflict disclosed on the record, and policy changes shown in redline
The chair volunteered "full disclosure, my daughter works at the district" (1:29:49) during the policy review and asked that the policy be reconsidered openly in subcommittee rather than ignored. On the policies moved to a final read, the subcommittee supplied strike-through markup, which the chair singled out because it showed "what was different, what wasn't" (1:37:17), and the policies reviewed without change were reaffirmed by board action so the annual review could be documented (1:29:20). No statute requires either practice.
Sources: the recording (1:29:20, 1:29:49, 1:37:17).
Appendix: source files
Official and public sources
- Cablecast: SCHOOL BOARD meeting of 2-20-19 (show 10252; run time from the Cablecast API not retrieved, as the API refuses requests from this environment)
- Google Drive: no agenda, packet or minutes. MAP.md: "neither share holds a year folder older than 2022, and the Meeting Minutes share starts at 2023 (checked 9/26/26)." Not searched again for this page, per the run instructions for meetings with no Drive material.
Project files
Working files this page was built from. The dialogue file is linked; the others are not published with the page.
Dialogue/10252 SchoolBoard022019.mp4.CSV (638 attributed rows; the basis of this page)Input/Videos/10252 SchoolBoard022019.mp4Input/Transcripts/10252 SchoolBoard022019.mp4.jsonInput/SupportingDocuments/MAP.md, section 93Scripts/attribution_reports_2015_2023/10252 SchoolBoard022019.mp4.md (speaker attribution report)
Laws and rules cited on this page
- 2 CFR 200.512(a)(1), 200.501(a) and 200.110(b), 2019 annual edition: single-audit deadline, threshold and effective date
- OMB Circular A-133 (June 2007 revision), §§200(a), 320(a): single audits of fiscal years beginning before December 26, 2014
- RSA 198:20-b, I and III, 2019 codification (2005, 188:1): unanticipated money; prior public hearing at $5,000 or more
- RSA 91-A:2, II, 2019 codification (2018, 244:1, eff. Jan. 1, 2019): minutes, mover and seconder, five business days
- 7 CFR 210.16(d), 2019 annual edition: food service management company contract term
- RSA 21-J:19: independent audits (permissive; named in flag 1 as not relied on)